Talk:Asperger's Syndrome (3.5e Trait)

Ratings

	MisterSinister opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	What all the others have said. Also, brevity is the soul of wit.

	DanielDraco opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	So not only does it minmax the fuck out of any int-based build, but you get 3 bonus feats on top of that? Come on, dude. Also, everything that Lez said. As someone who has Asperger's and has known several others who also do, I have to especially agree that the severity is way off-kilter. At least for a typical case.

	Leziad opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	What Fox said, also flaws never grant benefits except the bonus feat. Also Asperger syndrome is not that extreme.

Fluffykittens opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

Mechanically:+3 feats and +6 int in return for bruising a bunch of dump stats. A trait masquerading as a flaw. Autistic people are not blinder, deafer, or worse at medicine than other people, nor are they unusually weak-willed or oblivious to their surroundings. Autistic people do not have unusually weak personalities. "(Both scores cannot be reduced to less than 1 by this flaw, but their modifiers can be reduced to less than -5.)" How the fuck does this work mechanically? Fluffwise: Autism does not work that way. All Autism is is a social deficiency to a varying degree- and Asperger's is a very mild form of that. A flat INT buff at the cost of 2 charisma is not very interesting or balanced. It isn't the stupidly broken monstrosity that it was before- but still, +2 to one stat at the cost of -2 from a dump stat is simply going to give a flat buff to the Wizard, Factotum, and Archivist. As a side note, traits usually don't affect your ability scores directly, because it can lead to stupid, senseless boosts to ability scores you need and penalties to ones you don't. Fluffwise, people with aspergers syndrome aren't any smarter than the general population.

	Foxwarrior is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.
	Well, it attacks the numbers, but only about as much as other traits do.

MinisterSinister: As far as I'm concerned, brevity is the soul of misinterpretation.

DanielDraco: I changed this considerably, but the earlier builds were meant to emphasize that Aspies really don't get social interactions. At all. As a result, they tend to be liabilities. Maybe not to the level of "I drop my trousers and wizz on the king!", but pretty darned close. I have Asperger's myself, which is why I built this in the first place. (I did base it somewhat off of myself... I shouldn't have included the Wisdom and perception nerfs, though, as that's really ADHD, not Asperger's.)

Fluffykittens: 3 feats sounds like a bit much, but the way I had this set up before, there was no way someone with this flaw could be anything but a liability in social situations. Yes, Charisma tends to be useless for anyone not built to use it, but this flaw pretty much precluded several classes. Out of the core alone, an Aspie sorcerer, paladin, cleric, or bard would be an utter joke. Heck, even a rogue, who has some uses for high Int, has much more need of a good Charisma score to actually utilize most of its skills. Also, there's no way in heck an Aspie could get away with Use Magic Device abuse. Also, an Aspie tends to quickly realize that he/she sucks balls at socializing, which drives them away from even trying to do it. That's a textbook weak personality. But the poor perception thing? Uh... actually, that would be ADHD. Why did I ever lump that into this?!? I must have been trying to amass as much suck as I could into one package. --Luigifan18 (talk) 19:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you have self esteem problems, Luigifan18? Or do you know you're a genius?

If Asperger's Syndrome made you better at being a Wizard but worse at every other class that can be invented, it would be overpowered. --Foxwarrior (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Holy moly, I didn't know we were so many here with Asperger's Syndrome. I guess that's a stereotype based on actual truth at the base, then. I do feel that the Intelligence bonus is too high: we're not THAT smarter, aren't we? I would drop it to two, as well as the Charisma (likewise, we don't have THAT weak a personality). Maybe an additional penalty to Sense Motive and Bluff, with a bonus to Knowledge and memory checks (as if they were ever used). Heck, maybe just replace all the stats with a penalty to social interactions and these bonuses, or maybe a Skill Focus...(that's actually how I intended to include it in my game)

On another note, that's one heck of an Aspie you're describing there. Isn't that rather borderline high-level autism? I'm lucky to be far from that level, not like the guy I knew who couldn't even recognize someone when they changed clothes. I still don't get who's friendzoning who, though... No enough vicious intentions, I guess. -HarrowedMind (talk) 19:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The problem with modifying ability scores at all is that no ability score penalty can ever offset an ability score boost. Just find a class that uses the bonused score but not the penalized one, and suddenly your balanced tradeoff becomes a unilateral upgrade.

Fox: From my experience it seems to me that Aspies (myself included) tend to be very forthright about their condition and completely at peace with the limitations it imposes. It's probably not so mcuh a self-esteem problem as it is blunt realism.

HM: Aspies are often nerds, and vice versa. It's just a fact that there's a huge correlation there. The traits of those groups overlap quite a bit, so it makes sense. --DanielDraco (talk) 20:30, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh no, I'm surrounded!

Well, there have been several absurdly socially inept people here on this wiki over the years, and none of them have been any of you. --Foxwarrior (talk) 20:38, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

"Just find a class that uses the bonused score but not the penalized one, and suddenly your balanced tradeoff becomes a unilateral upgrade." Or just find a way to avoid making any social skills rolls- like use mind control, or planar bind a harem and then offer them up in exchange for favors. "Well, there have been several absurdly socially inept people here on this wiki over the years, and none of them have been any of you." Actual ASD disorders, including aspergers, do not mean that the person is a socially inept genius. People with aspergers tend to be socially inept, and tend to thus favor pursuits such as personal study which do not require social interaction, but these are generalities, not individual cases. Aspergers also tends to be attributed to far too many cases by therapists, IMHO.Fluffykittens (talk) 21:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

New idea

Instead of flat bonuses and penalties, I'll change this back to a flaw and have the effect be that you automatically fail any Charisma-based check on which you roll a natural 5, 4, 3, or 2. If you roll a natural 1, you fail really, really hard. And by that, I mean that you commit a massive faux paus. For example - calling Jesse Jackson a "filthy nigger". To his face. Or calling the Prime Minister of Israel a kike. Or... well, basically, you say something outrageously offensive and basically make everyone except for your closest friends instantly hostile towards you. (And sometimes you alienate your friends, too). What do you think? --Luigifan18 (talk) 21:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC)