Talk:Awakened Horse (3.5e Race)

Horse Chat

Ah, playable horse, something I've actually wanted to write up myself for a while but never got around to it. I'm gonna make this short for now and elaborate later. First off, skipping flavor and going into mechanics. So, ECL 1 with +4 Strength, 2 natural attacks (that may be intended to be only one, but you've got it written as two attacks) and ability to wield weapons with a handedness limit, 50 foot speed... also large. Anyways, this doesn't measure up well right there with other ECL 1 races. Most of the other features are flavor-ish... but that offset of those big boons just isn't there. Early game your AC total will be slightly lower due to investment (if you go with something that needs armor), but those costs are quickly eaten up at higher levels where armor's main cost is in the enhancement. Even at low levels if you stick with a lightly armored horse, that chain shirt is only 300 gp more... a masterwork weapon's cost, but you were already making multiple attacks at level 1 anyways. Summation: Sit back and look at this thing as a whole and post a reply about why you did what you did.--Ganteka Future (talk) 15:13, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The 2 natural attacks is intentional. I was trolling for opinions on balance, this is the first negative one, but that's fine. I figured this; it's Large, yes, but Large (long), which is more of a disadvantage than an advantage. That is, all the negatives, none of the reach. The +2 attack is nerfed by -1 size penalty, for a total of +1 attack/+2 damage. The speed, while very high, I didn't consider to be too huge of a benefit other than closing distance. In most situations I don't see long range combat being typical, as opposed to enclosed dungeons or the like.

With that said, wielding large weapons (even one-handed or less) may be too good still. The call of doing something crazy like a animal with a sword was strong. I debated on if it should have full function, holding but not wielding function, or holding function with the option for full function with a feat. I'd like to get more opinions on this, and if it needs a nerf I'll likely just remove the ability to use weapons with its mouth. The hooves are enough. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 22:22, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

To address the attacks thing, I honestly pictured Maximus from Tangled as a reference for horse mouth-wielding a weapon. I know you already know my dislike for natural attacks on PC races, but for those who don't the short of it is that I dislike the way they function when coupled with other attacks like unarmed strikes and manufactured wielded weapons (and to a lesser extent how you can't really expand on them with enhancements like manufactured weapons). Making 3 attacks at greater than normal to-hit and damage at level one isn't balanced without a compensating factor (taking into account only features gained from the race since that's what we're looking at here). My recommendation: Keep the mouth-wielding thing and dump the natural attacks. Have the hooves be something else (proficient unarmed strikes perhaps or even something like what I did on mythic beast or skull master with the feral strikes). As for the ability score modifiers and speed, I still feel they're too high for a base race. Perhaps add a 1 or 2 level racial HD progression class or something to absorb those trait bonuses.--Ganteka Future (talk) 01:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

While I disagree with the dislike on natural attacks, I am ok reducing it to one ala feral strike/unarmed attack. Which, done this way, it becomes a choice between sword-in-mouth or unarmed hoof, unless you had TWF. So I think I shall do that.

I am not sold on reducing the Strength yet. While +4 looks scary, because of the penalties it ends up just having +1 more damage than the equivalent +2/+2/-2/-2 race. Also, it can't two-hand, so the bonus is fixed at +1 and no worries about being multiplied. Also, it's a horse, it seems off to not have a good strength. I'll keep thinking on it, and I request more input from everyone if possible. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 02:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Also something to think about is the trade-off in AC. With the x4 increase in armor prices, almost all armor is basically unaffordable at level 1, and coupled with the fact that the Awakened Horse has no Natural Armor bonus, the minor added "to-hit" bonus is more than offset by having a lower than normal starting AC. I feel like that's a decent trade-off, keeping things fairly in the LA +0 range. Spanambula (talk) 04:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)